Katie shares more on growing in confidence, stretching herself, and being stretched by challenging circumstances. We explore some of the assumptions we can make about ourselves and others – and Katie’s experience of being far from home in the midst of a global pandemic. Enjoy this interesting and insightful episode!
Find Katie and her husband Andy on Instagram @theswanderers
Listen below, on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or find more platforms here.
Katie Swanson 0:06
Being able to connect with yourself and be able to cultivate this mental space, where you find a pause and you’re kind of dancing on the edge of discomfort, it’s been very beneficial. Because with anything, with most things, the discomfort is temporary. It does not last forever. You just have to breathe. And just find that pause and know that what you’re going through. It’s temporary.
Kerrie Phipps 0:43
Thank you, Katie for joining me again.
Katie Swanson 0:45
Yes. Thank you for having me.
Kerrie Phipps 0:47
Oh, yes. So welcome. I think it’s so important that we unpack a confidence journey because it’s different for everybody, isn’t it?
Katie Swanson 0:54
Right, and it’s very personal,
Kerrie Phipps 0:57
And sometimes we hear people’s stories and Go there’s confidence and you know people who would have assumed that you’re just confident you have this, you know, lovely demeanor you come across confident and and obviously you have grown a lot as you’ve been going through different work experiences and life experiences and your, you know, life changing experience of having an accident and Andy’s cancer journey. So if people haven’t heard part one of this conversation, it’s totally worth going back to get some context around this amazing individual his what your 10 no 12 months now into a journey of 25 different countries?
Katie Swanson 1:36
Yes. Currently, yes. What a journey and has done.
Kerrie Phipps 1:40
Yeah, yes. waiting at the storm in Vietnam right now. So if there’s a trauma of some sort, then people go, Ah, yeah. It’s like if people know your story, isn’t it, that they make assumptions about your confidence and whether that’s an appropriate level of confidence or whatever. We’re just kind of We won’t get down the pathway of assumptions people make. We have to manage our own, don’t we? Yes. Yeah. Have you noticed that you’ve made assumptions about people in your journey of becoming confident or those moments of feeling inadequate? Did you make assumptions about other people?
Katie Swanson 2:18
Oh my gosh, yeah. You know, friends or colleagues, especially if they say, Get up and give just a really awesome presentation at work or, you know, speaking conferences or things like that, talking to them or being able to have kind of a little more candid knowledge or knowing that they’re going into this and they’re feeling nervous about it or they they don’t think that they deserve to be doing this and then getting up and just seeing them absolutely slay something like that. It’s, it’s fun to kind of see the wizard behind the screen a little bit and be able to have those those conversations of Wait, you weren’t Nervous you knocked it out of the park. What are you talking about? That was really awesome.
Kerrie Phipps 3:04
Yeah. So have you had that feedback to where you’ve been nervous before presenting?
Katie Swanson 3:08
Uh, definitely. So, before we left to come on this world travel, I was a yoga instructor and I taught for a full year before ILA. And there were times going into that, that maybe I wasn’t in the right headspace, or I wasn’t feeling really confident about the flow or the sequence that I had built for that class. And I was kind of unsure and unsteady. And then the feedback that I got after sometimes be like, wow, that was really great. I really loved this particular part and put a High God because I just thought that I was floundering up there. And in a space like that, you don’t really have anywhere to hide.
Kerrie Phipps 3:59
Yeah, The class and will follow
Katie Swanson 4:01
Yes, actions. Yes, yeah. And more than once I would get lost. Forget what direction I was going in what posture was next what body part I was forgetting to cue who knows what it was more than once I would get lost. And there’s that moment of panic where your brain just kind of freezes.
Kerrie Phipps 4:03
Yeah,
Katie Swanson 4:25
But there’s no way to go. You just have to lean into it. And just, just do something. You can’t just sit there and complete panic silence you have a room full of people that are waiting your direction. So just pick something and move with it.
Kerrie Phipps 4:41
Yeah, and we forget sometimes that our our thinking is not on display. People are just following you doing one thing. And if you get lost for a moment, we’re just going to pause and pause and catch our breath.
Katie Swanson 4:56
Yeah, especially in a lot of moments like that people were totally fine. If you take a couple seconds to recollect your thoughts, they’re just gonna breathe and catch up.
Kerrie Phipps 5:05
Yeah, absolutely. So where else in life Do you see this? This playing out the the internal panic and where do I go from here?
Katie Swanson 5:16
Oh, well being on the other side of the world during during a global pandemic, trying to navigate visa renewals and travel restrictions and things like that has been, has been pretty big. there for really, honestly, probably a couple of weeks, I just felt mentally frozen. Like I did not know the next decision to figure out I did not have the mental bandwidth to try to figure out anything really. I feel
Kerrie Phipps 5:52
Like being stuck in downward dog pies and going where do I get? Yeah, yes. Again comfortable.
Katie Swanson 5:58
Yes, yes. To kind of tie the yoga journey back into it, maintaining a practice and being able to connect with yourself and be able to cultivate this mental space where you find a pause and you’re kind of dancing on the edge of discomfort. It’s been very beneficial because with anything with most things, you know, the the discomfort is temporary. It does not last forever. You just have to breathe and just find that pause and know that what you’re going through. It’s temporary. just freeze, take any lessons from it if you can, and then be able to let it go.
Kerrie Phipps 6:48
That’s really powerful. I guess Yoga is like a great, you know, or any physical exercise we were you are very aware of your body. It’s helpful for being aware of yourself, isn’t it? Yes. to tap into how I’m actually feeling today and
Katie Swanson 7:08
yes, you know, I very, very much
Kerrie Phipps 7:11
yeah, we don’t have that awareness so much. When we’re younger we just like push through hustle. And you use this phrase fake it till you make it. How does that feel?
Katie Swanson 7:22
Um, the the phrase, fake it till you make it in in the work environment was first introduced to me when I was bartending and, and we would show up and have whatever experience of what was happening outside of work, you know, you bring that in with you, whatever, you’re, you’re in a funk. You don’t really feel like being there that day. But guess what, it’s a football weekend, North American football weekend in a college town. You’ve got to fake it till you make it. You’ve got to leave whatever else at the door. And you need to be here and you need to bring the energy in And, again, just fake it till you make it. And more often than not, it would take just maybe 30 minutes for me to get into that headspace Yeah, and be able to leave everything else outside. And more often than not, I feel like the environment changed me I didn’t really have to do anything, I just had to stop and just allow whatever it was to, to kind of pick me up and carry me with it. So I think that’s, that’s kind of utilizing that saying in that way is what helps me more often. And with running or cultivating a challenging yoga practice. You just kind of show up showing up is so often the hardest part. You know, lacing up your shoes and getting out the door to go for a run is the hardest part of going for a run. And I love cases, showing up on your mat for practice is the hardest part. Even if you sit down They’re in child’s pose or takes take corpse pose the whole time. The fact that you showed up for yourself is the thing itself.
Kerrie Phipps 9:08
Yeah. Yeah. Because once you get there, it’s like this moment of honesty with yourself. You know? Yeah, you give yourself that opportunity. And it really comes down to the choice doesn’t it? It’s like choosing to show up. And I think it’s dangerous when we, when we use the language fake it till you make it because we, I find that we use that phrase less often now. Don’t wait, or it means something. Yeah, different now. Like because we we just want authenticity that way. But but there is that sense of like, when you’re trying to be successful at something, you just go, I’m just gonna fake it. But we’re so uncomfortable when we’re fake time. Yeah, when we make that choice, I’m choosing to leave behind the stresses of the day and I’m going to show up and be encouraging, supportive. I’m going to celebrate with the team, or whatever it is that we choose. Yeah. We are choosing that new way of thinking. Yeah. So tell me more about your journey of confidence and how you’ve connected with yourself and others from a place of authenticity.
Katie Swanson 10:11
Ah,
Kerrie Phipps 10:12
it’s shining through you that authenticity, it just, you know you that’s why it’s kind of funny when you say if I could see my face, I’m like, Yeah, I just see you as such an authentic person.
Katie Swanson 10:23
I appreciate that. I Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea when I say fake it till you make it because especially now you know, there’s such a focus on mental health and boundaries, and so many important things that no you definitely should not have to be faking that you do need to be honest. And you need to be able to set boundaries for yourself, communicate, communicate things that you’re just not okay with. So, fake it till you make it is not a just broad catch all for just Live life this way and everything will be okay. You definitely need to be able to be able to connect with yourself and be able to evaluate Is this how I want to be? Is this does this feel real and authentic and good? So, yes, I think in 2020 we should probably crumple up and throw away the fake it till you make it. It is it is not for all situations sometimes, yes, but but it is not for all situations. So, I think, Oh gosh, I think the yoga journey has been, has been really helpful. Honestly, I would say becoming a teacher and going through that training was just as beneficial to me and my growth and becoming more confident myself and just more comfortable with who I am. As the practice itself. You know, the The physical practice of it is only a small part of yoga itself. So when I went through teacher training, I had done some public speaking with my job training groups speaking at small conferences, things like that. So I was speaking about things that I knew about and that I was very passionate about. So so that kind of made it easy to speak about them.
Kerrie Phipps 12:28
Yes,
Katie Swanson 12:29
But as far as connecting with my voice, and becoming comfortable with that, that was an eye opening part of my yoga teacher training. Because one of the homework assignments was, okay, you’re going to design your flow for class, your flow is kind of the sequence of movements used for you know, the postures and body parts and verbal cues for where you should be feeling these certain sensations and things like that. So We had to learn how to be succinct with our cues, because it would be like if you’re listening to your Google Maps, and they’re like, yeah, you’re gonna see a stop sign up here, and you’re gonna arrive at the stop sign, and then you’re gonna look left, and you’re gonna look and just this. No one wants to hear that when you’re listening to Google Maps, I would throw my phone out the window.
Kerrie Phipps 13:21
Yeah.
Katie Swanson 13:22
So learning how to be more sustained with things like that. And learning how to have a more confident and authoritative tone. Because that’s kind of the other thing if you’re Google Maps was just ask, maybe turn left. You would not be confident in it to get you where you need it to be. Yeah, so those things made me much more aware of my voice and how I was speaking and how, you know, no one wants to be told that. Yeah, I heard what you’re saying that you don’t really sound like you know what you’re talking about. No one likes To hear that, so I became much more aware and we would get pure feedback. And sometimes that pure feedback would not be comfortable to hear because, you know, it’s coming from a constructive place, but no one wants to hear, oh, us. You don’t sound very knowledgeable or you sound meek. You’re you sound very quiet or things like that. So I became, for several weeks, I was listening to the news in my car every day on the way home and I would hear different anchors and kind of have this internal evaluation of, Oh, yeah, they sound really good. I like how they speak about this thing or the way that they sound when they do this. Just becoming more aware of your own voice and how you speak about things.
Kerrie Phipps 14:52
Yes,
Katie Swanson 14:53
it made me more confident. And one of the exercises for my teacher training That was really and truly one of the most intimidating parts of it was we had to record ourselves teaching a certain sequence. Yeah, with the cues and the postures and things like that. We could film it anywhere. It’s just a voice memo. People were hiding in their closets, or going, you know, their roommates or their partners or whoever would find them in there curled up in a corner in the closet talking and think, what are they doing? Have they lost it? What’s going on? But we’re all just so afraid. We’re so self conscious of it.
Kerrie Phipps 15:37
Yeah.
Katie Swanson 15:38
So we would record these voice memos and then play them in the class. It just felt like the most vulnerable, revealing exercise. Mm hmm. I may as well have been standing in front of the room in my underwear. It felt so vulnerable and revealing. But hearing that feedback, and getting that constructive criticism was so valuable. Yeah. And then I found when I went through that, because also part of learning to teach in a setting like that is making sure that your posture is up and open, that you’re projecting that you’re not just speaking down, you have a room full of people, they need to be able to hear you. Yeah, and I mean, I’m sure this is all basic public speaking one on one, but I found when I was doing it in this setting, that I was becoming more confident in my ability to speak up and work meetings or to, you know, lead trainings or things like that, and being able to project more and speak more clearly. So it was a total game changer.
Kerrie Phipps 16:41
Yeah, it’s fascinating, isn’t it? Because I think it’s great to learn from different angles. So you could just go and do a public speaking course. But to do a yoga instructors course or to do some theater classes to do some improv improvisation. classes, anything that gets you feeling awkward?
Katie Swanson 17:06
Yes,
Kerrie Phipps 17:06
Feeling, you know, like exposed vulnerable, putting your little offering out into the world, in a supportive environment. So there’s so many different kinds of classes that we can do to develop our confidence, you know, and there’s Toastmasters. And there’s all the drama classes and all kinds of things and getting a webinars and having something to say. Because webinars is a very common thing.
Katie Swanson 17:31
Yes, especially now.
Kerrie Phipps 17:33
So you know, being one of the ones who puts the hand up and ask the question, and interacts even if you feel and I would say, especially if you feel that you are inadequate, or somebody else is going to do it better. That’s the time when you feel nervous and feel like I can’t do this. That’s the time to push yourself and go. Okay, what if I just do what if I say something? What if I ask a question? Yes, because that’s all There’s so much worse but ourselves than everybody else. He’s isn’t it?
Katie Swanson 18:03
Oh my gosh, yes, always, always. And the teacher training cohort that I was with, they were so supportive, and we were with each other so much that by the end of it, we were family, it was a safe space. And we could give each other that feedback. And it was truly constructive. So that definitely helps. They’re, they’re all going through the same thing. Oh, shoot, I forgot the name of this posture, or I completely got lost in the middle of my class or whatever. You know, we, we’ve all been there. We’ve all done that. You know, you did great on this other thing, though. You’ll crush it next time, not a big deal. So find finding a group like that. That challenges you but is still very supportive of you and can offer critiques and encouragement. That definitely helps.
Kerrie Phipps 18:58
Yeah, that’s cool. So this, you know, self awareness and confidence that was growing because of your work and because of your yoga instruction. When you’ve spent the past year traveling and connecting with other people, can you just share a few thoughts about how maybe along the way you’ve been more connected with yourself and connecting with others?
Katie Swanson 19:19
Oh, yeah. Because we’ve spent so much time on this journey, and I won’t, I won’t get too into it here. But on this journey, we have done two pilgrimages where you’re just walking a lot, all day every day. Yeah, you’re left with your thoughts a lot. And for some people, that is a very terrifying place to be. But it’s one of those challenging spaces that that I like to lean into to figure out you know, just to kind of check in with yourself. There, there have been several times have been definitely challenging physically, mentally. The I think, how am I feeling right now? Why am I feeling this way? Am I in physical pain? Is it because I’m hungry? Is it because I’m bored? Is it because, you know, whatever the case may be. So I think leaning into those moments and exploring a little bit more about why do I feel this way, what’s going on in but in my environment, just kind of taking taking kind of a whole 360 snapshot of what’s going on. A lot of times, we like to just kind of power through things and muscle through them and just fix it in a hurry so that you don’t have to feel these things, whether it’s physically, mentally, emotionally and you just want to muscle it down and change it so that you don’t have to feel these things anymore. But in some of these really challenging situations where you’ve been traveling, you just have to lean in and you just have to surrender to that. The difficulty of it, to get through it, you can’t muscle your way through, you’re going to burn up a lot of energy and you’re going to be exhausted. And it’s still not going to end how the way you the way that you need it to end. But surrendering to the difficulty in that moment and realizing, oh, this is not ideal. But I’m just going to keep going. And I just have to trust that it’s going to be okay. And it’s going to, it’s going to work out the way that I need to. And I think that the word, you know, the word surrender, I think in Western cultures especially is seen as defeat, and it’s seen as failure and giving up. And that’s not at all it when you can surrender to something you recognize. Okay, I’m recognizing that this is difficult. I’m going to lean in, and I’m going to get through it. It won’t last forever. And I’m just going to put my head down and keep plodding along. Then use use my resources as best I can. But there’s no muscling through this and powering through this. I’m just going to lean in and keep going on my way.
Kerrie Phipps 22:08
Yeah, beautiful. So what do you think of the benefits on the other side of that surrender rather than fighting your way through that surrendering to, and that self awareness of Okay, this is actually where I’m at right now?
Oh, I mean, I think it’s it’s a lot of personal growth, and realizing what you’re capable of outside of that big energy of like fighting something off, you kind of tap into other skills that you may have other ways of handling situations, I guess, to give some context, so that this isn’t all completely abstract. Some of the early moments of this trip when we’re on these pilgrimages, and we’re walking anywhere from 15 to maybe 25 kilometers, I’m trying to think in kilometers and not miles and it’s kind of just Right now because I haven’t had to do that. So we’ll say between 10 and 15 miles per day, it gets boring really quickly. And it’s just made up of a bunch of small steps. So what do you need to do to get through that? Because there’s no other way to get through it. You have to keep moving forward. So kind of finding mental space to get into is it noticing the landscape where you are? Is it finding a rhythm with your breath or with your footsteps? or doing something like that? So that you’re not just sitting there going constantly? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Because you’ll drive yourself and whoever you’re walking with and saying,
Yeah, so when you start noticing your breath or your, your cadence, your surroundings, what how does that shift that experience for you?
Katie Swanson 23:54
Ah, usually just find, you find more things to enjoy. I don’t know I think it’s it’s probably different for different people. I know a lot of people really struggle and it can be really traumatic for people to kind of be with their thoughts. Yeah, that’s not always a safe space for people to be in. But just kind of I don’t know I I find a lot of enjoyment in, in solitude and being able to kind of reflect on things.
Kerrie Phipps 24:26
Yeah.
Katie Swanson 24:27
Sometimes it’s it’s not real fun if you’re caught up on bad memories or embarrassing things that happened or things like that, but I think there’s just a lot of value in being in that moment.
Kerrie Phipps 24:41
Yeah. And it’s so true for some people. It’s it’s traumatic to be listening to your own thoughts. And so we need them to talk to somebody rather than just shut it down. keep yourself busy. And
Katie Swanson 24:55
yes,
Kerrie Phipps 24:56
now when we are not going anywhere, you know, stuff can come up for people. Yes. And, yeah, it’s so important that we do the work. But we don’t have to do it alone.
Katie Swanson 25:07
Yes.
Kerrie Phipps 25:09
You know, helplines we can call forums that we can get into and start processing, because those things don’t go away. Right?
Katie Swanson 25:16
Yeah. Right. I think that’s, that’s part of the value too is being able to kind of recognize those things and flag them, archive them, do whatever you need to to be able to recognize like, Okay, this is something that that I need to deal with. This is something that I need help. Addressing. This is something that I need to tear down or build up whatever it is you need to do.
Kerrie Phipps 25:41
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I had an extraordinary woman from India speaking on a webinar the other day, she’s a lieutenant governor of purity cherry in India. Kiran Bedi is she talks about, you know, a season of deconstruction and reconstruction and we Not like deconstruction, you know, if you’re going in and pulling the kitchen apart, because you’re gonna put in a new, that’s exciting. But, you know, if we feel like there’s our lives of deconstructing, and the things are falling apart and memories are coming up that we don’t want to address like, it’s, it’s an opportunity to go right maybe it’s time to work through these things, but we can do it all at once and we can’t do it on our own. So, you know, I just want to encourage, you know, if you’re listening and thinking, Oh, no, this is me. This is uncomfortable. Yeah, please find someone to talk through with. Yes, because yes, we can enjoy the journey of life more, as you’ve said, Katie. Yes. Once you take the focus off the foot pain when you’re like walking and walking and walking, and walking.
Katie Swanson 26:46
Yes. Yes.
Kerrie Phipps 26:48
To go. Okay. I’m going to I’m going to deal with this. But yeah, right now, I’m going to look at the scenery. I’m going to appreciate. You know, I’ve been listening to a song called alive and breathe And it’s just, there’s so much to be grateful for. When we just come back to our breath. It’s like, I’m alive. I have Yes, I this day is a gift. Yeah. So we have the opportunity to shift our thinking, when we are aware of our thinking.
Katie Swanson 27:16
Yes, yeah. Yeah, I think the key is becoming aware and thinking, kind of taking that mental inventory of what are some things here that that I like, and I want to keep and promote healthy growth? And what are some things that are not beneficial? What are some things that I need to let go of? Yeah,
Kerrie Phipps 27:38
yeah, it’s a good time for decluttering mentally. I know like people talk about decluttering and sort of the opposite because you’re in it every day. Yes. Yes. You’re with yourself. So you know, work through those things. Because there is a more confident you on the other side, isn’t there?
Katie Swanson 27:55
Yes, absolutely. It is uncomfortable. It can be messy. But it is so worth it. Keep at it and know that you’re not alone. There are so many people who would love to help you through it and who are very capable, and who can help you through that.
Kerrie Phipps 28:12
Beautiful. Thank you, Katie. And you know, we’ve seen so much attention paid to connection. Yeah, well, yes, the way we connect has changed. But it hasn’t taken away a desire to connect and it’s kind of shined it up more has enough.
Katie Swanson 28:28
Yes. You know, we’ve been on this journey for 12 months, we’ve been away from family and friends and our community and my mother in law Indies. Andy’s mom has been able to meet up with us a couple different points in this trip and she even brought his dad over to surprise him. And it has been so wonderful having those moments to see someone face to face. But you know now now that we’re in a pandemic and so much connection is shut down. It was so interesting to see how much more isolated from our friends and family and community we felt when that started, I mean, we would we would talk to our friends and family on the phone, you know, every so often we text and things like that. But then once the quarantine really went into full effect, it just felt different. We were still in the same exact place, you know, across the globe from all of our people. But suddenly those, those connections felt more important. Yeah. And so I was really lucky. My home yoga studios started offering classes through zoom. So I was able to connect with them and see see them, you know, for the first time since we left, and that just had such a profound effect. Again, we’ve been away from these people this whole time. But suddenly when it went The inability to connect in person shut down, it felt different. There was a marked difference in how we how we felt connected across the globe.
Kerrie Phipps 30:10
So how connected Are you feeling right now?
Katie Swanson 30:13
Oh, I, I feel much more connected. You know, we when we were on the pilgrimages and things you you kind of form your own community. It’s like a. It’s like a traveling family reunion or something like that when you have other people who are collectively on this journey going together. That felt very connected. But then as we’ve moved away from that, we’re in Vietnam now and we really only have children to talk to here. So it yeah, it has just changed so much.
Kerrie Phipps 30:48
Yeah. Well, I’m very grateful for this opportunity to connect with you. And yeah, of course our plan. Well, I haven’t met you face to face yet. plan was to meet up with you in Asia in the Second half of much. And that didn’t happen, but we’ve been having conversations. And now I’m getting to know you.
Katie Swanson 31:07
Yes, this has been this has been so wonderful. And yeah, I haven’t, we haven’t had these kinds of in depth, you know, thought provoking conversations with anyone besides each other. Since we were on these kind of pilgrimages, you know, kind of more spiritual journeys and things like that. So this has been really wonderful. And I kind of feel like I’m diving back into parts of my brain or my life that I haven’t really been thinking about so much lately. So thank you for that.
Kerrie Phipps 31:38
You know, it’s like, now, you know, and there’s this phrase that people have been using, you know, we’re all in this together. And there is an element of that. There’s so many ways in which people are challenged by this. Two different extremes. But you know, being in this together, has bought up for me. Some of my clients have been isolated in different ways. One of them had a severe accident and So he has been, you know, at home dealing with his health challenges for quite a period of time. And now everybody else is in isolation. So now they’re thinking more about reaching out. How are you going? Because we all know what it feels like now to be in isolation. But we’ve had so many people in our world have been feeling isolated the whole time. So quite exciting to see this renewed focus on connection. And yeah, how are we connecting with people in their neighborhood, you know, the old people in our community, and there’s so much more looking out for each other and connecting with each other. So yeah, I guess your yoga studio and other people in the US will have time to connect with you now because they’re not going.
Katie Swanson 32:43
Exactly.
Kerrie Phipps 32:47
And again, back to our connection. It’s very exciting that you have also contributed some beautiful stories to my next book. So I haven’t mentioned that on my podcast yet. But there is There is a new book in the works. And there’s stories from right around the world coming out very soon. So thank you again for your time, Katie, and I think we’ll have to get you back once the book is published and hear more of your stories.
Katie Swanson 33:13
Yes. Thank you so much Kerrie. I am looking forward to it.
